Ramanisblog

Tag: Brahmi

  • World Language Families From Indian Languages Evidence

    I received a comment on my article ‘All Indian Languages are over 5000 years old’ thus.

    ‘This Venkat Ramanan guy would be laughed at any reputed  school of linguistics in the world. The headline is very misleading… All languages of India are not 5000 years old. There are only 4 major language families of India. Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, SinoTIbetan and Austro-Asiatic. Sanskrit, the mother of all the Indo-Aryan languages is indeed 5000 years old, but it is laughable to suggest that Hindi, Punjabi, Marathi, Bengali are also 5000 years old. These languages, i.e. Hindi, Punjabi etc. all started off as local dialects of Sanskrit and over the millenia morphed into the languages that you hear today. Likewise, ancient Dravidian morphed over the 4-5000 years into what we now hear as Tamil, Telugu, Kannada etc. The Austro-Asiatic languages are represented by Ho, Munda and Santali in India ( I don’t know their antiquity, but it has got to be ancient). SinoTibetan family of languages are spoken in the North East of India and yes SinoTibetan ( Ancestor of Han Chinese, Burmese etc is indeed 5K years old). If one wants to thump their chest in some exercise in petty nationalism, so be it; but it can hardly be called “Scholarship”. ‘

    1.Unraveling the misinformaton about India, is ‘petty Nationalism’ be it’

    2.I did not present more information on the article,as I thought it would become heavy and expected my readers to check the languages’ history and Sanatana Dharma,which my readers generally do.

    Now let me on the Dravidian,Proto Dravidian,Indo Iranian,Indo Asiatic,Indo Australian group of languages.

    Before proceeding further,it must be remebered that languages evolve from Dialects.

    It is generally agreed that India had Brahmi and Prakrit as Dialects initially.

    Sanskrit ,Prakrit,Tamil Brahmi,Tamil are to be taken into account.

    Prakrit was called a colloquial language,spoken by ordinary people,while Sanskrit was spoken by Scholars and was used more for Literature and Philosophy.

    There is Sanskrit Brahmi,which is considered as older and it dates back over 5000 years,and a Dialect takes much longer to evolve.

    Now Sanskrit is dated( again deliberately) to 5000 BC.

    Even this date should push Sanskrit Brahmi by at least 2000 years before Sanskrit,that means 7000 years ago!

    2.We have Tamil Brahmi as well and as Tamil is assigned, at least,a date of 3000 BC,Tamil Brahmi must be dated 5000 BC.

    3.Kannada Brahmi is found in  rock in Karnataka and it is dated a million years ago.(please read my article on this)

    Dravidian Family/Proto Dravidian Family.

    ‘the Proto-Dravidian language is not itself attested in the historical record. Its modern conception is based solely on reconstruction. It is suggested that the language was spoken in the 4th millennium BCE, and started disintegrating into various branches around 3rd millennium BCE.   (     https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Dravidian_language  )
    ‘Though some argue that the Dravidian languages may have been brought to India by migrations in the fourth or third millennium BCE

    migrations in the fourth or third millennium BCE or even earlier,the Dravidian languages cannot easily be connected to any other language, and they could well be indigenous to India.

    Epigraphically the Dravidian languages have been attested since the 2nd century BCE. Only two Dravidian languages are exclusively spoken outside India: Brahui in  Pakistan,and Dhangar,a dialect of Kurukh, in Nepal.Dravidian place names along the Arabian Sea Coast and the Dravidian grammatical influence such as clusivity in the Indo-Aryan languages, namely Marathi, Konkani, Gujarati, Marwari, and Sindhi, suggest that Dravidian languages were once spoken more widely across the Indian subcontinent. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages)

    Tamil heads this group.Tamil Brahmi must have been there atleast 2000 earlier to reach its full bloom.

    Note that these Dravidian languages were spoken ‘ Dravidian languages were once spoken more widely across the Indian subcontinent’ as far away in NorthWest of India.

    Tamil Brahmi script has been found on Indus Valley civilization.

    Elamite and Akkadian languages forerunner of Sumerian trace their origins to Tamil.Please check my articles on this.

    This places Tamil around 5000 years ago and its pervasive nature throughout.

    Indo Iranian Family.

    ‘The Indo-Iranian languages derive from a reconstructed common proto-language, called Proto-Indo-Iranian.

    The oldest attested Indo-Iranian languages are Vedic Sanskrit (ancient Indo-Aryan), Older and Younger Avestan and Old Persian (ancient Iranian languages). A few words from another Indo-Aryan language (see Indo-Aryan superstrate in Mitanni) are attested in documents from the ancient Mitanni kingdom in northern Mesopotamia and Syria and the Hittite kingdom in Anatolia.’

    Look at the spread of Sanskrit ,to Mesopotamia and Anatolia!

    ‘The Indo-European languages are a language family of several hundred related languages and dialects. There are about 445 living Indo-European languages, according to the estimate by Ethnologue, with over two-thirds (313) of them belonging to the Indo-Iranian branch.

    Indo-European Family traces its history to Indo Iranian and Indo Iranian to Vedic Sanskrit!

    Afroasiatic languages have their origins in Akkadian,Elamite and they are traced back to Tamil/Sanskrit.

    ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages  )

    Cameroonians speak Tamil even today.

    Indo Semitic Group.

    The Indo-Semitic hypothesis maintains that a genetic relationship exists between Indo-European and Semitic — that is, that the Indo-European and Semitic language families descend from a prehistoric language ancestral to them both. This theory has never been widely accepted by contemporary linguists in modern times, although historically it has had a number of supporting advocates and arguments, particularly in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    ‘According to Carleton T. Hodge (1998:318), a leading specialist of Afroasiatic, “The positing of a genetic connection between Indo-European and Semitic goes back at least as far as Richard Lepsius (1836)”.


    The arguments presented for a relationship between Indo-European and Semitic in the 19th century were commonly rejected by Indo-Europeanists, including W.D. Whitney (1875) and August Schleicher.

    The culmination of this first phase in Indo-Semitic studies was Hermann Möller’s comparative dictionary of Indo-European and Semitic, first published in Danish in 1909 (but usually cited in its German edition of 1911).

    Sino Tibetan,Indo Australian languages go back to Sanskrit/Tamil..

    So, it is not ‘Petty Nationalism’ but a statement of facts when I write on India,its History,People and its languages

  • Common Link Language Of Vedic Sanatana Dharma India

    One finds references to South India, called Dravida Desa during the Santana Dharma Period

    There are references to in Tami literature and Sanskrit Texts, Vedas,Ramayan, Mahabharata,Eighteen Purans and in later Sanskrit and regional literary works.

    Regional literature refers to Sanatana Dharma and Ithihsas in detail, e it Tamil, Telugu,Kannda,Bangla, Oriya.

    Evidence abounds that a healthy trade between the people of the south  and the north flourished since the Vedic period.

    Now the question is how did these people communicate with each other in view of the fact that India has multiple languages and dialects.

    ‘

    There are 22 major languages in India, written in 13 different scripts, with over 720 dialects’  .https://www.justlanded.com/english/India/India-Guide/Language/Languages-in-India

    ‘According to Census of India of 2001, India has 122 major languages and 1599 other languages. However, figures from other sources vary, primarily due to differences in definition of the terms “language” and “dialect”. The 2001 Census recorded 30 languages which were spoken by more than a million native speakers and 122 which were spoken by more than 10,000 people’ -wiki

    Sanskrit is said to be oldest language being dated about 5000 years back.

    ( I had written this my not be correct and Sanskrit might be much older along with Tamil, an ancient language of India. million year old Tamil  Site near Chennai ,Tamil Nadu with advanced Tamil civilization.And Tami quotes Vedas and Vedas in turn quote Tamil and Tamil Kings.Please read my articles on this)

    The languages spoken in the south and even among the north indi differ.

    Sanskrit is accepted in all the regions though!

    Groups in India spoke  different languages.

    Yet they were in intimate contact with the Sanatana Dharma People whose language was Sanskrit.

    Not all groups were familiar with Sanskrit.To compound the issue there was Vedic Sanskrit and Panini Sanskrit ( Ashtdhyayi)

    ‘

    Vedic Sanskrit is the language of the Vedas, a large collection of hymns, incantations, and religio-philosophical discussions which form the earliest religious texts in India and the basis for much of the Hindu religion. Modern linguists consider the metrical hymns of the Rigveda to be the earliest. The hymns preserved in the Rigveda were preserved by oral tradition alone over several centuries before the introduction of writing, the oldest among them predating the introduction of Brahmi by as much as a millennium .[citation needed]

    The end of the Vedic period is marked by the composition of the Upanishads, which form the concluding part of the Vedic corpus in the traditional compilations, dated to roughly 500 BCE. It is around this time thatSanskrit began the transition from a first language to a second language of religion and learning, marking the beginning of the Classical period’

    And Tamil a past of not less than 20,000 years at a conservative estimate..the excavation of Poompuhar confirms the date.please read my article on this.

    There are references to the effect in Sanskrit Texts, Mahabharata  and Ramayana to Tamils.

    Udiyan Cheralathn, a Tamil King provided food to both the armies during the Mahabharata battle.

    Shiva is considered to be the founder of Tamil language.

    Agstya, Subrahmany are associated with Tamil intimately.

    Lord Krishna and Arjun married Tamil Pandyan Princesses;Krishna had a daughter and had her married to a Pandyan prince.;Arjuna had a son from south.

    Sahadeva went on a pilgrimage to south and Balarama came to south and worshiped Subrahmanya.and of course, Parshurma who founded the present Kerala State.

    I can go on adding in this vein.

    But the issue is, how did these people communicate with each other?

    The common thread seems to be Brahmi.

    Devimahatmya manuscript on palm-leaf, in an early Bhujimol script, Bihar or Nepal, 11th century
    Devimahatmya manuscript on palm-leaf, in an early Bhujimol script, Bihar or Nepal, 11th century,Variation of Brahmi

    Image Credit.

    By Anonymous – Commentary: The Devimahatmya cropped from http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/5/5.20/ms2174.jpg; taken from: w:en:Image:Devimahatmya Sanskrit MS Nepal 11c.jpg, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=191227

    ‘

    Brahmi (brāhmī) is the modern name given to one of the oldest writing systems used in South and Central Asia during the final centuries BCE and the early centuries CE. Like its contemporary, Kharoṣṭhī, which was used in what is now Afghanistanand Pakistan, it is an abugida.

    The best-known Brahmi inscriptions are the rock-cut edicts of Ashoka in north-central India, dated to 250–232 BCE. The script was deciphered in 1837 by James Prinsep, an archaeologist, philologist, and official of the East India Company.[1] The origin of the script is still much debated, with current Western academic opinion generally agreeing (with some exceptions) that Brahmi was derived from or at least influenced by one or more contemporary Semitic scripts, but a current of opinion in India favors the idea that it is connected to the much older and as-yet undeciphered Indus script…

    The Brahmi script diversified into numerous local variants, classified together as the Brahmic scripts. Dozens of modern scripts used across South Asia have descended from Brahmi, making it one of the world’s most influential writing traditions. One survey found 198 scripts that ultimately derive from it.

    The script was associated with its own Brahmi numerals, which ultimately provided the graphic forms for the Hindu–Arabic numeral system now used through most of the world.’

    Tamil Brahmi was discovered in Harappa and there is a Million year old Brahmi script found in Karnatka, Kannada Brahmi.

    Brahmi script, though associated with Sanskrit was also used in other parts of India with local variations.

    We have another,Brahui, spoken by Tamils and by the people of North Weaste India!

    ‘Brahui /brəˈhuːi/ (Brahui: براہوئی) is a Dravidian language spoken by the Brahui people in the central Balochistan region ofPakistan and Afghanistan, and by expatriate Brahui communities in Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, and Iran.It is isolated from the nearest Dravidian-speaking neighbour population of South India by a distance of more than 1,500 kilometres (930 mi). Kalat,Mastung, and Khuzdar districts of Balochistan are predominantly Brahui-speaking.

    Area where Dravidian languages are spoken
    Area where Dravidian languages are spoken,Brahui

    Image credit.

    By BishkekRocks – Base map template: demis.nl. Sorce for map data: Language families and branches, languages and dialects in A Historical Atlas of South Asia, Oxford University Press. New York 1992., CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1593835

    Tamil Chola King, ancestor of Rama, who built the Thiruvellarai Temple, near Sri Rangam, ruled from the present Pakistan region.

    Sibi Ruled from Pakistan

    We have yet another common Link language,after the advent of Buddhism.

    It is Pali .

    Pali is the Middle Indo-Aryan language in which the Theravada Buddhist scriptures and commentaries are preserved. Pali is believed by the Theravada tradition to be the same language as Magadhi, but modern scholars believe this to be unlikely.[citation needed] Pali shows signs of development from several underlying prakrits as well as some Sanskritisation.

    The prakrit of the North-western area of India known as Gāndhāra has come to be called Gāndhārī. A few documents written in the Kharoṣṭhi script survive including a version of the Dhammapada.

    Considering these facts it seems logical to conclude that  .apart from Sanskrit, Prakrit,Brahui and Pali were used as common link languages of India since Vedic Times.

    They have changed during the course of Time.

    References and Citations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahui_language

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_history_of_the_Indian_subcontinent#Proto-Indo-Aryan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script

     

  • Indian Script Began in 3012 BC Beginning Of Kali Yuga

    Apart from wondering about the treasure trove of Hinduism which opens the doors to Wisdom,Knowledge, Information and Spirituality, one thing has been nagging my mind.

    There are thirty million manuscripts 700 poetic meters in Sanskrit.

    https://ramanisblog.in/2015/02/04/thirty-million-manuscripts-700-poetic-meters-amazing-sanskrit/

    and you have the Vedas.

    ps345722
    First Indus Valley script 2600 BC

    ‘The Vedic literature is composed of many books.

    mbh_ikswaku_lineage

    The oldest texts are the Rig-veda, Yajur-veda, Sama-veda, and the Atharva-veda. It is said in the Muktikopanishad that these four Vedas had 21, 109, 1000, and 50 branches respectively, with over 100,000 verses. Now, however, we can only find around 20,023 (some say 20,379) verses in total from these four Vedas.

     

     

    It is the oldest book in any Indo-European language and contains the earliest form of all Sanskrit mantras that date back to 1500 B.C. – 1000 B.C. Some scholars date the Rig Veda as early as 12000 BC – 4000 B.C

    https://ramanisblog.in/2013/08/16/rig-veda-date-components-details/

    It is well known that the Hindu Texts were transmitted orally.

    True.

    Even today one can see the Vedas being transmitted orally in India.

    I am amazed at the sheer volume being transmitted only by Oral tradition.

    It is enjoined in the Vedas that one has to study the Vedas from a Guru for Twelve Years.

    Even this can be one Shaka, a portion of a Specific Veda that is assigned to one by tradition.

    How come all the verses, well most of them, are available today?

    Only by Oral tradition?

    Without recourse to any form of writing?

    Well let me leave this for the present.

    But writing must have been in vogue during the Ramayana and Mahabharata Period.

    We have instances of Kings sending emissaries with written Communication ‘Nirupam’

    Sita’s Swayamwara, Damayanti Swayamvara, Draupadis Swayamvara have been communicated to all the Kings of India, then 56 in number.

    And these messages traveled from Ayodhya to Madurai and the present Kerala, to Pandyan and Chera kings respectively.

    The messages as Nirupam implies a language, script.

    Resting aside the  controversy about the common language, which I shall address later, the accepted early script is Brahmi.

    Again there is Tamil Brahmi, Sanskrit Brahmi, Kannada Brahmi.

    Tamil Brahmi is found in the Harappan Civilization.

    Two million year old Rock carving dating to Million years was found in Karnataka.

    Earliest Brahmi script  is assigned a date of 2600 BC

    ‘The first Indian script, developed in the Indus Valley around 2600 B.C. is still undeciphered. Thus, it is still not possible to fully understand this civilization, as we have no readable records of their beliefs, history, rulers or literature’

     

    ‘The Indus valley findings made Indologists acknowledge that writing existed prior to Mauryan writing. Though it has not been deciphered , it clearly shows writing existed in India before atlest 5-2 milliena before christ. Some Indology scholars have tried to show Indus script is derived from script from another civilization. But all these theories have fallen flat. Hrozny tried to derive Indus script from Hittite, Diringer is convinced that no script existed prior to Indus script from which Indus scirpt can be derived. Hunter and Langdon regard Indus script as prototype of Brahmi. The Vedic Scholars believed that Brahmi is from Brahma. It is mentioned in Narada Smriti that if Brahma has not created the art of writing or given excellant eye in the shape of script, the future would not have been deprived of obtaining bright future.

    The Absence of inscriptions since Indus valley is due to widespread use of Paper and Cloth, which are perishable in nature…

    ‘Alberuni believes Indian Alphabet originated with the begining of Kali Age (3102BC).

    Hiuen Tsang speaks of high Antiquity of Indian writing system. Brahmi is stated, in the Chinese Encyclopedia Fa-Wan-Shu-Lin, to be the best of scripts.’

    ‘

    One of the first great civilizations–with a writing system, urban centers, and a diversified social and economic system–appeared around 3,000 B.C. along the Indus River valley in Punjab and Sindh.

     

    http://www.ancient.eu/article/294/

    I agree with Alberuni the Chinese  ancient .eu ,taking into account the dates of Ramayana and Mahabharata and of course the Vedas.

     

    Sources.
    A Concise History Of Classical Sanskrit Literature By Gaurinath Shastri, Bhattacharyya Shastri Gaurinath
    The rise, decline and renewals of sramanic religious traditions within indic civilisation with particular reference to the evolution of jain sramanic culture and its impact on the indic civilization by Bal patil
    Students’ Britannica India, Volumes 1-5 By Indu Ramchandani
    A Companion to Sanskrit Literature: Spanning a Period of Over Three Thousand … By Sures Chandra Banerji
    On the origin Indian Brahma Alphabet Georg Buhler
    Was Writing Know Before Panini by A Chela
    Agama Aura Tripitaka, Eka Anusilana: Language and Literature By Nagraj (Muni.)

    Citations.

     

    http://www.ancientindia.co.uk/writing/home_set.html

    http://controversialhistory.blogspot.in/search/label/sanskrit

    http://www.stephen-knapp.com/complete_review_of_vedic_literature.htm

    Ramani’s Blog