Tamil Brahmi – Ramanisblog

World Language Families From Indian Languages Evidence

I received a comment on my article ‘All Indian Languages are over 5000 years old’ thus.

‘This Venkat Ramanan guy would be laughed at any reputed school of linguistics in the world. The headline is very misleading… All languages of India are not 5000 years old. There are only 4 major language families of India. Indo-Aryan, Dravidian, SinoTIbetan and Austro-Asiatic. Sanskrit, the mother of all the Indo-Aryan languages is indeed 5000 years old, but it is laughable to suggest that Hindi, Punjabi, Marathi, Bengali are also 5000 years old. These languages, i.e. Hindi, Punjabi etc. all started off as local dialects of Sanskrit and over the millenia morphed into the languages that you hear today. Likewise, ancient Dravidian morphed over the 4-5000 years into what we now hear as Tamil, Telugu, Kannada etc. The Austro-Asiatic languages are represented by Ho, Munda and Santali in India ( I don’t know their antiquity, but it has got to be ancient). SinoTibetan family of languages are spoken in the North East of India and yes SinoTibetan ( Ancestor of Han Chinese, Burmese etc is indeed 5K years old). If one wants to thump their chest in some exercise in petty nationalism, so be it; but it can hardly be called “Scholarship”. ‘

1.Unraveling the misinformaton about India, is ‘petty Nationalism’ be it’

2.I did not present more information on the article,as I thought it would become heavy and expected my readers to check the languages’ history and Sanatana Dharma,which my readers generally do.

Now let me on the Dravidian,Proto Dravidian,Indo Iranian,Indo Asiatic,Indo Australian group of languages.

Before proceeding further,it must be remebered that languages evolve from Dialects.

It is generally agreed that India had Brahmi and Prakrit as Dialects initially.

Sanskrit ,Prakrit,Tamil Brahmi,Tamil are to be taken into account.

Prakrit was called a colloquial language,spoken by ordinary people,while Sanskrit was spoken by Scholars and was used more for Literature and Philosophy.

There is Sanskrit Brahmi,which is considered as older and it dates back over 5000 years,and a Dialect takes much longer to evolve.

Now Sanskrit is dated( again deliberately) to 5000 BC.

Even this date should push Sanskrit Brahmi by at least 2000 years before Sanskrit,that means 7000 years ago!

2.We have Tamil Brahmi as well and as Tamil is assigned, at least,a date of 3000 BC,Tamil Brahmi must be dated 5000 BC.

3.Kannada Brahmi is found in rock in Karnataka and it is dated a million years ago.(please read my article on this)

Dravidian Family/Proto Dravidian Family.

‘the Proto-Dravidian language is not itself attested in the historical record. Its modern conception is based solely on reconstruction. It is suggested that the language was spoken in the 4th millennium BCE, and started disintegrating into various branches around 3rd millennium BCE. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Dravidian_language )
‘Though some argue that the Dravidian languages may have been brought to India by migrations in the fourth or third millennium BCE

migrations in the fourth or third millennium BCE or even earlier,the Dravidian languages cannot easily be connected to any other language, and they could well be indigenous to India.

Epigraphically the Dravidian languages have been attested since the 2nd century BCE. Only two Dravidian languages are exclusively spoken outside India: Brahui in Pakistan,and Dhangar,a dialect of Kurukh, in Nepal.Dravidian place names along the Arabian Sea Coast and the Dravidian grammatical influence such as clusivity in the Indo-Aryan languages, namely Marathi, Konkani, Gujarati, Marwari, and Sindhi, suggest that Dravidian languages were once spoken more widely across the Indian subcontinent. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages)

Tamil heads this group.Tamil Brahmi must have been there atleast 2000 earlier to reach its full bloom.

Note that these Dravidian languages were spoken ‘ Dravidian languages were once spoken more widely across the Indian subcontinent’ as far away in NorthWest of India.

Tamil Brahmi script has been found on Indus Valley civilization.

Elamite and Akkadian languages forerunner of Sumerian trace their origins to Tamil.Please check my articles on this.

This places Tamil around 5000 years ago and its pervasive nature throughout.

Indo Iranian Family.

‘The Indo-Iranian languages derive from a reconstructed common proto-language, called Proto-Indo-Iranian.

The oldest attested Indo-Iranian languages are Vedic Sanskrit (ancient Indo-Aryan), Older and Younger Avestan and Old Persian (ancient Iranian languages). A few words from another Indo-Aryan language (see Indo-Aryan superstrate in Mitanni) are attested in documents from the ancient Mitanni kingdom in northern Mesopotamia and Syria and the Hittite kingdom in Anatolia.’

Look at the spread of Sanskrit ,to Mesopotamia and Anatolia!

‘The Indo-European languages are a language family of several hundred related languages and dialects. There are about 445 living Indo-European languages, according to the estimate by Ethnologue, with over two-thirds (313) of them belonging to the Indo-Iranian branch.

Indo-European Family traces its history to Indo Iranian and Indo Iranian to Vedic Sanskrit!

Afroasiatic languages have their origins in Akkadian,Elamite and they are traced back to Tamil/Sanskrit.

( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages )

Cameroonians speak Tamil even today.

Indo Semitic Group.

The Indo-Semitic hypothesis maintains that a genetic relationship exists between Indo-European and Semitic — that is, that the Indo-European and Semitic language families descend from a prehistoric language ancestral to them both. This theory has never been widely accepted by contemporary linguists in modern times, although historically it has had a number of supporting advocates and arguments, particularly in the 19th and 20th centuries.

‘According to Carleton T. Hodge (1998:318), a leading specialist of Afroasiatic, “The positing of a genetic connection between Indo-European and Semitic goes back at least as far as Richard Lepsius (1836)”.

The arguments presented for a relationship between Indo-European and Semitic in the 19th century were commonly rejected by Indo-Europeanists, including W.D. Whitney (1875) and August Schleicher.

The culmination of this first phase in Indo-Semitic studies was Hermann Möller’s comparative dictionary of Indo-European and Semitic, first published in Danish in 1909 (but usually cited in its German edition of 1911).

Sino Tibetan,Indo Australian languages go back to Sanskrit/Tamil..

So, it is not ‘Petty Nationalism’ but a statement of facts when I write on India,its History,People and its languages

12 Apr 2017

All Languages of India 5000 Years Old, Conservative Estimate

The plethora of Languages in India is mind boggling.

22 Official languages( some estimate to be 25) and 720 Dialects( some estimate 2000) !

( http://translation-blog.trustedtranslations.com/india-the-country-with-more-than-2000-dialects-2011-10-18.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_history_of_the_Indian_subcontinent)

The unraveling of the History of these languages is very difficult and calls for an understanding of the Cultural undercurrent running through all these languages.

Regions may vary,languages and dialects may vary,but the ethos of Sanatana Dharma straddles them like a colossus,albeit with slight modifications as in Tamil,though the core remains the same.

Looking through the prism of Foreign Culture,would obfuscate the study for to classify and assign them dates without taking Sanatana Dharma into account ,will result in arriving at incorrect conclusions.

There,again, we have the myth,now debunked Theory of Aryan Invasion.

This helped the Invaders to divide the country and enaled them to rule India.

So, a grand design was worked out.

Take Indian languages,without taking Sanatana Dharma into account,underlying cultural unity among these languages,refer and link these languages to countries,which are now independent of India,like Afghanistan,Iran,Iraq,forgetting the the fact that Bharatavarsha extended throughout the globe,some 5000 years ago.

(Please read my articles on the spread and Sanatana Dharma, under ‘Hinduism’ or google the country plus Sanatana Dharma +ramanan 50.)

So for the common man the message was that,

There are two major Languages,Sanskrit and Tamil,

The other languages were derived out of either of these or a mixture of two.

This makes the job of misinformation easier.

One,you can divide people on the basis of Language and another,you can date individual languages as you please,meaning assign them much later dates!

What are the facts,when one takes the parameters of Sanatana Dharma,its pervasive nature throughout the world and an independent analysis of each language in conjunction with Sanatana Dharma and the history of a language based on its history and its Dialects?

1.There ,my research over eight years on Sanatana Dharma,its presence thorughout the world civilizations,my study of Indian languages’s History, compel me to arrive at different sets of facts on Indian languages and their dates.

2.As records stand now, Sanskrit and Tamil seem to be oldest of the languages of India.

3.The dates od Sanskrit and Tamil stretch far back in time and it is difficult to say which one wzs earlier,for, A million year old site Athirambakkam,near Chennai,Tamil Nadu,India had an advanced Tamil civilization znd this civilization quotes Vedas.

And Vedas refer Tamil/Tamils.

And recent excavations of Poompuhar,Tamil Nadu dates the city 11,000 Year ago!

Yet the Tamil is assigned a date of around,3000 BC!

The researches into Lemuria/Kumari Kandam, the home of Tamils indicate Kumari Kandam around 200,000 years ago!

At worst ,you can date Tamil,at 20,000 years ago.

4.Telugu.

Telugu is dated around 1500 BC.

But people forget Godavari is one of the ancient rivers of India and Godavari civilization was also a cradle of civilization.

Telugu is mentioned in Ramayana.

And Tamil Sangam literature refers to Telugu.

And Tamil Sangam is dated,by the western orientalists at 3000 BC.

So even by their reckoning Telugu should be at least 3000 years old.

In fact,based on Indian texts,it is at least 5000 years old.

5.Kannada is said to be 2500 years old.

Again Tamil texts refer Kannada and Ramayana refers to the area,Kishkinda,Rama’s sister was married to Rishyashrunga from Sringeri,Karnataka.

So Kannada can be dated at least 5000 years ago.

9.Bengali,Marathi,Gujarati, and other languages of regions around Vindhyas and beyond also date back to at least 5000 years.

They evolved from Prakrit,Brahmi,Sanskrit,which are dated at 5000 years ago or earlier.

The differnces among these languages is due to the fact that they descended from Brahmi,which had 11 types.

All the regions in India are described by Valmiki in his Ramayana and Vyasa also refers them in Mahabharata.

And all the eighteen puranas speak of all these areas and dialects.

So, none of the Indian Languages are younger than 5000 years.

The plethora of Languages in India is mind-boggling.

22 Official languages (some estimate to be 25) and 720 Dialects (some estimate 2000)!

([http://translation-blog.trustedtranslations.com/india-the-country-with-more-than-2000-dialects-2011-10-18.html]

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_history_of_the_Indian_subcontinent)]

The unraveling of the History of these languages is very difficult and calls for an understanding of the Cultural undercurrent running through all these languages.

Regions may vary, languages and dialects may vary, but the ethos of Sanatana Dharma straddles them like a colossus, albeit with slight modifications as in Tamil, though the core remains the same.

Looking through the prism of Foreign Culture would obfuscate the study for to classify and assign them dates without taking Sanatana Dharma into account will result in arriving at incorrect conclusions.

There, again, we have the myth, now debunked Theory of Aryan Invasion.

This helped the Invaders to divide the country and enabled them to rule India.

So, a grand design was worked out.

Take Indian languages, without taking Sanatana Dharma into account, the underlying cultural unity among these languages, refer and link these languages to countries, which are now independent of India, like Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, forgetting the fact that Bharatavarsha extended throughout the globe, some 5000 years ago.

(Please read my articles on the spread and Sanatana Dharma, under ‘Hinduism’ or google the country plus Sanatana Dharma +ramanan 50.)

So for the common man, the message was that,

There are two major Languages, Sanskrit and Tamil,

The other languages were derived out of either of these or a mixture of two.

This makes the job of misinformation easier.

One, you can divide people on the basis of Language, and another, you can date individual languages as you please, meaning assign them much later dates!

What are the facts when one takes the parameters of Sanatana Dharma, its pervasive nature throughout the world, and an independent analysis of each language in conjunction with Sanatana Dharma and the history of a language based on its history and its Dialects?

There, my research over eight years on Sanatana Dharma, its presence throughout the world civilizations, my study of Indian languages’ History, compel me to arrive at different sets of facts on Indian languages and their dates.
As records stand now, Sanskrit and Tamil seem to be the oldest of the languages of India.
The dates of Sanskrit and Tamil stretch far back in time, and it is difficult to say which one was earlier, for, a million-year-old site Athirambakkam, near Chennai, Tamil Nadu, India had an advanced Tamil civilization and this civilization quotes Vedas.

And Vedas refer Tamil/Tamils.

And recent excavations of Poompuhar, Tamil Nadu, dates the city 11,000 Years ago!

Yet Tamil is assigned a date of around 3000 BC!

The researches into Lemuria/Kumari Kandam, the home of Tamils, indicate Kumari Kandam around 200,000 years ago!

At worst, you can date Tamil at 20,000 years ago.

Telugu.

Telugu is dated around 1500 BC.

But people forget Godavari is one of the ancient rivers of India, and the Godavari civilization was also a cradle of civilization.

Telugu is mentioned in Ramayana.

And Tamil Sangam literature refers to Telugu.

And the Tamil Sangam is dated, by the western orientalists, at 3000 BC.

So even by their reckoning, Telugu should be at least 3000 years old.

In fact, based on Indian texts, it is at least 5000 years old.

Kannada is said to be 2500 years old.

Again Tamil texts refer Kannada and Ramayana refers to the area, Kishkinda, Rama’s sister was married to Rishyashrunga from Sringeri, Karnataka.

So Kannada can be dated at least 5000 years ago.

Bengali, Marathi, Gujarati, and other languages of regions around Vindhyas and beyond also date back to at least 5000 years because they evolved from Prakrit, Brahmi, Sanskrit, which are dated at 5000 years ago or earlier.

The differences among these languages are due to the fact that they descended from Brahmi, which had 11 types.

All the regions in India are described by Valmiki in his Ramayana, and Vyasa also refers to them in Mahabharata.

And all the eighteen Puranas speak of all these areas and dialects.

So, none of the Indian Languages are younger than 5000 years.

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11 Apr 2017

Were The Vedic People Literate

One of the strengths of Sanatana Dharma is its Oral tradition of transmitting texts, both Philosophical and Scientific.

But the sheer volume defies imagination.

“With Thirty Million Manuscripts existing even today,Sanskrit is the oldest Language of the world and the Rig Veda which is in Sanskrit is the oldest literature of the world”

.Thirty Million Manuscripts Seven Hundred Poetic Meters Sanskrit

Is it possible for any race to transmit such a large volume only by Oral tradition?

Could the people of Ancient India, of Sanatana Dharma, Bharatvarsha Read and Write?

Western Scholars think it s possible and declare that the ancient Indians had Super Memories!

phrase_sanskrit — Evolution of South Asian Scripts.

For this is convenient to deny at a later stage and declare that such a feat is impossible and hence the such oral traditions are a myth and hence can be dismissed as interpolations and a latest date may be assigned to them

The fact that one finds Sanskrit Brahmi, and Tamil Brahmi were found in Indus Valley civilizations..

This at the latest is dated at 3000 to 5000 BC

And the finding of Kannada Brahmi in Karnataka.

And Tamil Sangam Literature speaks of the Vedas, its texts.

Consider the Mathematical , Biological, Astronomy,Genetics, texts which involve writing of the highest order.

Imagine building, for example,The Thanjavur Big Temple or any other Temples and structures which could not have been built with ot written calculations and drawings

And,

‘western scholars of Indology said:
“Entire absense of writing, reading, paper, or pen in vedas, or during Brahamana period and complete silence in Sutra period(When art of writing was beginning to be known), the whole Literature of India was preserved in oral tradition only”

Weber who wants to bring all history to later than Biblical period admits:
“Europe has 10,000 sanskrit texts and considering that we have tens of thousands which the parsimony of karma has hithherto withheld form Museums and libraries of Europe, what a memory must have been their!.”

Indian super Memory
The Immemorial practice with students of sanskrit literature has been to commit to memory the various subjects of their study and this practice of oral tradition has preserved the ancient Vedic texts. This fact has led Western Indology scholars to surmise that writing was unknown in the earliest period of Indian Civilization and that the later forms of the alphabet were not of pure Indian growth.

So According to these Western Indology Scholars, Indians have Super Human Memory. By Which they can not only memorize scores of documents, but they can also transmit through generations. Wow!, Who said science fiction is 20th century Stuff.

We are looking at this question. Did writing existed prior to Mauryas?

Panini
Panini is best known grammarian of India. Muller says that there is no single term in the panini terminology which presupposes the existence of writing. So we go to find out.

Panini almost singlehandendly brought together the classical sanskrit grammer. He mentions Grantha the equivalent for written or bound book in the later days in India. For Max Muller Granta mean simply a composition, which is handed down the generation by oral tradition. In short Panini is illiterate and somehow he produced one of the most eloborate and scientific set grammer ever known to mankind till today.Remember Panini has given 3996 rules for Classical Sanskrit Grammar.

Writing in Literature
Classical Sanskrit Literature
The direct reference to writing classical sanskrit according to Indologists in literature are found to be in the Dharmasutra of Vasistha, which Dr.Buhler thinks, was composed around 8th century BC. Some scholars will assign this work 4th century BC as well.Astadhyayi of panini contains such compounds as Lipikara and Libikara, which evidently mean writer. The date of panini is not fixed, prof.Goldstucker puts him 8th century BC, others put him in 4 the century BC. The Vedic works contain technical terms like aksara, kanda, patala, grantha and the like, which is clear indication of writing. Of course Indology scholars wont accept them.

Buddhist age
There are quite a large number of passages in the SriLanka’s Tipitaka, which bear witness to an acquaintance with writing and to its extensive use.

At the time when Buddhist cannons were composed. Lekha and Lekhaka are mentioned in the Bhikkhu pacittiya and Bhikkhuni pacittiya.

In the Jatakaas, constant meniton is made of letters being written. The Jatakas know of proclamations.

Epic Age
Epics contains archaic expressions such as likh, Lekha, Lakhaka, Lekhana but not lipi, which some scholars think is foriegn orgin. So Writing was known in Epic Age.

Vedic Literature
We find clear evidence in wide spread use of writing in the vedic period. Written documents are mentioned as legal documents.

Scripts
Brahmi
The earliest surviving written record other than Indus script is Piprawa vase inscription discovered by Colonel Claxton peppe. This Inscription is a prakrit before the prakrits of magadhi or sourasheni developed, so differently interpreted. This is dated to early part of 5th century BC.

Next comes Sohaura Copper plate , which Dr.Smith puts before Ashoka by 50 years.

The Inscriptions of Ashoka is all over India. This shows that Writing was well used in Royal courts and the writting was well understood by common people.

Dr.Weber came with view that Brahmi is borrowed from South Arab tribe. But this has been dismissed by Dr. Buhler.

Buhler Identified certain Brahmi letters were identical to 9th-7th BC century Inscriptions found in Assyria. One third of 23 Alphabets are identical to Brahmi letters. This Indologists suggestions that the Brahmi letters were derived from these letters from all Indology scholars including Buhler. But we have to note that the tribes in question are belonging belonging to Indian Tribe. This script traveled from India to Middle east.

Jain Stupa unearthed at the Kankali Tila site of Mathura regarded by Vincent Simith as the oldest known stupa then (Before Indus valley sites were discovered). Smith dated it to be 600 BC for erection. Dr.Fuhrer who supervised the excavation found out that it contained a inscription Deva Stupa in a script, so old that it was forgotten.

Indus Script
Indus Script has 250-500 characters. Some of the Seals seems to be Bilingual with Indus script next to the symbols. Seeming symbols to be for traders from other languages. So Indus valley is literate culture.”

So the Ancient Indians knew Reading and writing and transmitted Vedic Texts orally to ensure that they are not destroyed.

Citation and reference..

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.in/2012/11/was-ancient-india-literate-super-human.html

Image of ancient scripts Credit.

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/evolalpha.html

http://www.ancientscripts.com/brahmi.html

16 Apr 2016

AncientTamil Script in Egypt Oman Found

I have been posting articles on two issues.

1.Tamil and Sanatna Dharama are inseparable and Vedic culture emanated from the South

2.Sanatana Dharma was spread throughout the world.

I have posted quite a few articles on these two issues.

Now it is found that in Egypt and Oman, Tamil Brahmi scripts have been discovered , dating 1 BC.

As I have pointed out in my earlier posts, History has been distorted to the extent that people think of Africa, Middle east as having peopled with Nomadic tribes with no religion worth the name.

Islam is being projected as the Religion in Middle easy , while in Africa, their early religion has been erased from memory by Christianity.

Tamil Brahmi Script,Quseir-al-Qadim,,Oman,

The words Nanthai ,Keeran are found. ணந்தை- கீரன்

Refers to Nakkeran of the First Tamil Sangam?

In that case it has to be at least 5000 years old.

” A broken storage jar with inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi script has been excavated at Quseir-al-Qadim, an ancient port with a Roman settlement on the Red Sea coast of Egypt. This Tamil Brahmi script has been dated to first century B.C. One expert described this as an “exciting discovery.”

The same inscription is incised twice on the opposite sides of the jar. The inscription reads paanai oRi, that is, pot (suspended) in a rope net.

An archaeological team belonging to the University of Southampton in the U.K., comprising Prof. D. Peacock and Dr. L. Blue, who recently re-opened excavations at Quseir-al-Qadim in Egypt, discovered a fragmentary pottery vessel with inscriptions.

Dr. Roberta Tomber, a pottery specialist at the British Museum, London, identified the fragmentary vessel as a storage jar made in India.

Iravatham Mahadevan, a specialist in Tamil epigraphy, has confirmed that the inscription on the jar is in Tamil written in the Tamil Brahmi script of about first century B.C.

In deciphering the inscription, he has had the benefit of expert advice from Prof. Y. Subbarayalu of the French Institute of Pondicherry, Prof. K. Rajan of Central University, Puducherry and Prof. V. Selvakumar, Tamil University, Thanjavur.

According to Mr. Mahadevan, the inscription is quite legible and reads: paanai oRi, that is, ‘pot (suspended in) a rope net.’ The Tamil word uRi, which means rope network to suspend pots has the cognate oRi in Parji, a central Dravidian language, Mr. Mahadevan said. Still nearer, Kannada has oTTi, probably from an earlier oRRi with the same meaning.

The word occurring in the pottery inscription found at Quseir-al-Qadim can also be read as o(R)Ri as Tamil Brahmi inscriptions generally avoid doubling of consonants.

Earlier excavations at this site about 30 years ago yielded two pottery inscriptions in Tamil Brahmi belonging to the first century A.D.

Another Tamil Brahmi pottery inscription of the same period was found in 1995 at Berenike, also a Roman settlement, on the Red Sea coast of Egypt, Mr. Mahadevan said.

These discoveries provided material evidence to corroborate the literary accounts by classical Western authors and the Tamil Sangam poets about the flourishing trade between the Tamil country and Rome (via the Red Sea ports) in the early centuries A.D.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1933979/posts